Graffiti is old as the ages just as it is fresh. In the ruins of Pompeii petrified political graffiti scrawled on the walls of buildings gives a glimpse of something transient by nature that has been captured by natural disaster and preserved. Graffiti was never commissioned by wealthy patrons and passed on from villa to castle to vault to museum. It’s of the street and for the street. It responds to the times, and then is washed away by the times. Jilly Ballistic, Brooklyn born‘n’bred, is of our times. True to them, we met up last Sunday afternoon on Skype for a drink and some gab.

SZOLDIE
I don’t have any bourbon, so I couldn’t make a manhattan, but I have a good sake, so... cheers!

JILLY
(raises her glass)
Cheers!

SZOLDIE
When did you start bombing the trains?

JILLY
I wanna say about 3 or 4 years ago.

SZOLDIE
And what was the impetus?

JILLY
It was one of those moments when... a light bulb goes off. You spend so much time down there and it just seemed like the right thing to do at the right time. There are thousands and thousands of miles of space to work with, and it was just something to play with really. My style from then to today is vastly, vastly different.

SZOLDIE
Before that had you done any street art or graffiti?

JILLY
Yeah. It was I guess more traditional since I used spray paint. I was literally writing. Mostly fiction. On garbage. Anything I could find. And it was more like street installations, so if I found a refrigerator or a stove or a beat-up couch that was going to be tossed, I’d just write something on it. And that’s kinda how it started.

SZOLDIE
That’s how SAMO started. Back in the day. So, good tradition...
That early stuff, did you document it too? Or was it more just, as you go.

JILLY
I took photos, even before the days of Twitter and you know, social media absorbing everything. I took photos ‘cause I knew it wasn’t gonna last. Especially if it was on garbage, it’d be gone the next day.

SZOLDIE
It’s interesting because the act of taking the photo is also then part of the art.

JILLY
That’s actually the hardest part. Getting a good shot.

SZOLDIE
But it’s something I really appreciate as a filmmaker. The frame, the spontaneity of a certain passer-by, it’s all in the moment.

JILLY
Right.

SZOLDIE
Then there’s your black-and-white photography which is of the city. I wanted to ask you a little bit about that and how it started.

JILLY
Umm...
(laughs)
That actually started just ‘cause I got a better phone that had a better camera. The last time I did anything in photography I was maybe a teenager using film. Once everything went digital I kind of broke up with that relationship, ‘cause it wasn’t like film. It didn’t capture as much. But now as digital’s progressing, it’s starting to get that depth. And I’ve been playing around with it just to see. Especially with light. That’s pretty much my thing.

SZOLDIE
I’m digging them.

JILLY
I should probably upload more.

SZOLDIE
Or keep them and just upload them all at once. You know, I think there is something interesting with the instant feed of Instagram, Twitter and all of that stuff that’s spontaneous and immediate, and in that way “of the moment”, so it has that kind of energy. But there’s also something that is lacking if a body of work isn’t presented as a whole. That’s just something I think artists can be aware of, the seminating of their work in different ways.

JILLY
Everything is about timing so it depends on when you release it. There are really no rules.

SZOLDIE
Nope.
So, when you started bombing the trains, did you start with the gas masks?

JILLY
No, it was historical images combined with philosophical quotes. So it was a black-and-white image of whoever saying something from Nietzsche or Confucius... It was site-specific. Text, imagery, environment. Those were dramatically smaller, maybe a foot tall. Small people installed in trains or on platforms, saying something. And I learned how to you know, beat the system, ‘cause you learn the rhythm of the subway, what to look out for, which people are OK with you doing something, who are not. Once you learn the system you get a little more courageous, you go a little bigger. Then you can also play with materials. Certain papers, certain pastes, and you start to just... it’s like a snowball. You push yourself to do better. And bigger. Or just be smarter about it. And eventually it leads to larger pieces. Now I’m doing 3, 4 foot pieces during rush hour. Three years ago no way in hell I would have done that. It seems insane to do it, but once you keep testing the waters, it becomes, yeah, no problem.

SZOLDIE
Do you do work at night too?

JILLY
The great thing about the subway is that it doesn’t matter what time of day you do it, ‘cause it’s all about the flow of foot traffic, the flow of the trains, where the cameras are. So there really is no such thing as day or night in the subway.

SZOLDIE
You obviously can’t know how long your pieces stay up, but has there ever been a piece that you put up, it stayed up and you were surprised to see it was still there?

JILLY
Oh yeah.

SZOLDIE
What’s the longest time that you have witnessed something up?

JILLY
I hit a VICE News advertisement. It was when they just came out, and of course it was a war-torn scene and there was a TV right in the middle of it. So I pasted right next to it a soldier shooting at the TV. And that was up for two weeks.

SZOLDIE
People probably thought it was part of the ad.

JILLY
Yeah. But some I literally I put up, take a photograph and it’s gone ten minutes later. It’s good timing in terms of, I didn’t get caught, but it’s also bad timing ‘cause the MTA agent just walks right by, notices it and takes it down. That’s happened many times, where it’s... “Sonovabitch, I just put that up!”

SZOLDIE
Have you ever experimented with stronger glue? Is there stronger adhesive?

JILLY
Yeah, but with paper, which is what I use, you don’t wanna go too heavy or it’ll wrinkle or it will take forever to dry. Also it depends on what you can carry into the subway without it looking too obvious that you have something with you. I mean, carrying buckets of wheat paste is kind of obvious. Right now I use 3M77 which is a spray adhesive, it fits in your bag, it’s quiet when you spray it, it doesn’t clog up, it sticks to any surface. So that was a major find.

SZOLDIE
You’re the poster girl of it.

JILLY
(laughs)
Yeah.

SZOLDIE
They should pay you.

JILLY
Ding! A little funding. Exactly. BALLISTIC APPROVED. Perfect.

SZOLDIE
So... have you been caught?

JILLY
Umm... By the police, no. But at times I’m so driven to hit a particular spot where I totally miss a camera, which has happened in a stairwell or wherever. Because it’s like, this is It. There’s no other spot but right here, and I’m focusing so hard on getting it right that I’ll miss a camera that’s hanging literally right there. And then, “Excuse me ma’am,” I hear a voice behind me. “You can’t do that here.” I’ll play stupid, “Oh! I’m so sorry!” And I’m peeling it off really slowly so it doesn’t rip. I wanna save it at least.
They don’t want to have to fill out the paperwork, right? It’s a whole to-do for them, so they’re just, “Get outta here.”

SZOLDIE
Are there some MTA guards who know you and are looking out for you?

JILLY
I don’t know. I hear... there’s something called The Vandal Squad.

SZOLDIE
Apparently.

JILLY
Ridiculous name.

SZOLDIE
Is that new?

JILLY
Well, it’s the city. The city has certain police. Like anti-graffiti police and they have a list of artists they’re always looking out for. But the thing is, unless they actually see you put it up, they can’t do anything. Even if you’re standing next to it, they can’t arrest you. So there are loopholes and shit. I’ve had friends arrested. Not for putting up a piece but for retouching, going back the next day and slightly putting their hand over it. And then they’re jailed on a Friday and they’re not processed 'til Monday. It’s ridiculous. But it’s like, “Yup! Shouldn’t have gone back. Just walk away.” Once it’s out there, whatever happens to it, that’s it.

SZOLDIE
Do you have any nostalgia for the ‘80’s when the trains were all painted, before they were all done over or replaced?

JILLY
I kind of envy the fact that those guys had so much freedom because there was such lack of police force down there. Nobody stopped them, nobody cared. There was no movement against it at first. You just took a can, you went to the end of the line and you did it. They had their own system, but it was nowhere near the stranglehold that the city has on it now. If I had that type of time... yeah, I could totally wrap a train car. Not a problem. That would be fantastic.

SZOLDIE
And it could stay too. It would weather, until it was sprayed over by other people’s stuff-

JILLY
Yeah, and that would be fine.

SZOLDIE
The graffiti wars.

JILLY
Exactly.

SZOLDIE
Dondi. Wild Style (1983).

JILLY
There’s "Stations of the Elevated" (1981) which is another really great one. It’s a silent film- well, not silent, there’s the sound of the station accompanied by Charles Mingus. That’s a really good film.

SZOLDIE
It had it’s own heyday and obviously there’s street art today which is great too. But I don’t really see other writers doing the kind of things that you’re doing, the variety. You can’t really pigeonhole what you’re doing. The advisory warnings, the computer pop-up warnings, of course the gas mask figures.

JILLY
I wonder why artists- or people in general tend to stick to one thing.

SZOLDIE
People are concerned with branding themselves. Brand recognition. And that sometimes can be limiting. You follow an idea to its logical end- ‘til you completely play it out. And some artists follow an idea ‘til their death. I mean, Rothko. Did his thing. And didn’t really deviate. But there’s also Picasso who had so many different periods.
I think of your stuff as going between poetry and art. Baudelaire talked about the flaneur, which basically means someone who walks through the streets and is so involved with the city life on his feet, or in your case, on the trains, interacting with the people of the city, not with a destination in mind, not going anywhere to do anything specifically. Just existing in this journey through the city.

JILLY
That’s part of the reward of doing site specific street art or installation or graffiti. You come across something that you have to work with. You’re not expecting. A lot of it’s not even planned. You’re just going through the city and the city rewards you. That’s what I love about New York. It’s constantly giving you something. I’ll make a mental note of where and when, or something that I want to work with. It’ll stick in my head and I’ll think, what do I want to do with this space? Or with this ad? And then I’ll draw something up or find the right image, and then guesstimate the measurements, since I can’t just walk up with a ruler. I’ll come up with a design, roll it up in my bag and then go out and see what happens. You have an idea in your head of where it’s going to end up, what it’s going to look like, but the city’s gonna interfere. And for each piece you’ll have a story. It’s nice when it doesn’t always go smoothly.

SZOLDIE
Dig. So the movie poster advertisements- when did you start doing those?

JILLY
That’s actually kinda recent. I wanna say last year. I got the idea of using this digital lifestyle that we’re in and just putting it into real life. Into something physical. The idea of having the power to actually delete something. Something as simple as that. Or to respond. I mean, how do we respond nowadays? Ok, well, we press a button. A “Like” button, or a “Delete” button, or a “Decline” button. I had fun with it. That’s primarily the whole point of what I’m doing. I’m having a good time doing it, other people are responding to it, am I saying something that’s remotely important?

SZOLDIE
You’re making people laugh, you’re making people think.

JILLY
Yeah, at the minimum it’s entertaining.

SZOLDIE
But it’s also aesthetically clutch. I think the aesthetics of it, the perfection of the graphics, the accuracy, that’s what makes it connect in your mind, as a viewer. The advisory messages as well... The format is the message.

JILLY
It’s a crazy combination.

SZOLDIE
For it to work and be effective-

JILLY
It’s gotta work together.

SZOLDIE
I really love the idea of “Delete”... one of my favorites of yours was for Grudge Match. “Geriatric Alert”

JILLY
“...Please review your career trajectory.”

SZOLDIE
It’s exactly what people are thinking, but then to see the automaton computer warning that has zero personality actually have this wit, and thought behind it, it’s comedy. I was thinking about the idea of “Delete”. There’s a bombardment of advertisement, but still when you see something, you can’t help but read it. It does infiltrate your consciousness in someway. There’s one way of reacting which is, “Delete! Delete! Fuckin’ bullshit!” Really hating on it all. Or the playful talking back, which I think your stuff shows as an alternative. Obviously people just try to ignore it, but you can’t ignore it.

JILLY
We’re definitely a trapped audience. But it’s almost like a conversation, and that’s why I sign each piece. “Thank you!” or “Apologies. Jilly Ballistic.” And I give the options, “OK” or “Delete” or ”Ignore.” Having the ability to interact, not just getting angry at something but actually having a dialogue with whoever’s pumping this crap out.

SZOLDIE
Say theoretically one day all advertisement in the city disappeared. No blank boards, just nothing. Do you think that we’re so accustomed to this visual landscape that people would miss it or even rebel?

JILLY
If all the ads were gone.... That’s a good question, I’ve never been asked that one before. I don’t know if it’s even possible to remove-

SZOLDIE
Magic. A hypothetical.

JILLY
-‘cause that’s the society we’re in. There’s always something being plugged somewhere.

SZOLDIE
Say, two weeks vacation from advertisement.

JILLY
Nice!

SZOLDIE
So, nice? You think people would like it.

JILLY
I think... Nah, I think that would be embraced. For a while. And then I think human nature would just make up their own ads.

SZOLDIE
Make up their own ads? Or make up their own art? Would they plug themselves you think?

JILLY
Plug themselves. Create. Or it would just spur something. You know, I’m an optimist. I think people would probably create stuff. I mean, I would!

SZOLDIE
Do you see much political graffiti in New York any more?

JILLY
Yeah, there are pieces out there that talk about women’s rights, women’s reproductive rights. A lot of wheat pastes. Tatyana Fazlalizadeh for example.

SZOLDIE
The cat-call girl.

JILLY
Yeah. “Stop telling women to smile.”
There’s always something regarding capitalism or the US government’s involvement in Gaza or the Middle East. The thing about graffiti is that you have to look for it. It’s not as prominent as it once was, so if you’re a fan, which is also part of the thrill, you go hunting for it. While you’re out walking, you find yourself looking in all these nooks and crannies for something somebody did. A lot of it’s anonymous. A lot of it’s from artists who will never be known. But you have to look for it, that’s part of the reward to come across stuff that somebody for some reason did. It’s out there.

SZOLDIE
What do you think of street art in the gallery, or sold as fine art to collectors.

JILLY
Yeah, that was just a matter of time. You know, every artist has their reason for doing it. Gallery work for me is extremely difficult ‘cause I don’t work that way. I’m more reactionary with my environment. And gallery work is the complete opposite of that. You’re creating something specifically to sell. When someone asks me, “Hey! Do you wanna be part of a show?” That’s like, “This is gonna hurt.” I won’t say no. I’ve always done gallery work because you have to step out of your own little comfort zone and see what you come up with.

SZOLDIE
The ephemerality of a lot of your work- what is that to you?

JILLY
I do simply out of the joy and love for doing it. I know that pedestrians, strap-hangers see it, but I know that the MTA saw it if they took it down. A lot of people are like, “It’s so tragic! It doesn’t last.” A) good. That’s the point. It’s not supposed to. And when it’s removed, you know that they saw it.

SZOLDIE
Is it addictive?

JILLY
(laughs)
Yes. Extremely addictive. Watch out kids!
There is an adrenaline rush, yes, but I also just love the process. There’s just so much reward. Your brain releases all those chemicals. The reward of finding the right spot, the right materials, doing it at the right time. You’re just like some dumb little animal constantly being rewarded.

SZOLDIE
(laughs)
So, tell me about the Poon Hawk. How was she born?

JILLY
How it hatched.

SZOLDIE
How did she hatch.

JILLY
How the Poon Hawk was Hatched. A couple years ago, some friends of mine who are also street artists Enzo & Nio came up with something called a Cock Shark. Which is literally a Great White, but also looks like a dick, basically. I was just fooling around with them, “There’s so much of that shit around already!” I need to counter, I need to balance, I need to find something. And it was just, “What animal can I create that’s equal and even surpasses?” It’s the Poon Hawk. It started just as a joke, like, “Guys, I’m gonna make a Poon Hawk!” you know? And put that on the street. It’s one of the rare pieces that I actually put on the street. I put it on mailboxes, where I replace the American bald eagle with a Poon Hawk. So that was my summer project, just going around as many mailboxes in New York and putting up a Poon Hawk over the bald eagle. That was fun.

SZOLDIE
Fierce.

JILLY
And it only comes out- I’ve decided, I’m only putting it out seasonally. Spring, is usually when I put it out, ‘cause it’s almost like a migration pattern. So it only comes out once a year. Sometimes on the street, sometimes in the subway. It depends.

SZOLDIE
You were talking about, what was it, Game of Thrones?

JILLY
Yeah.

SZOLDIE
You did a brilliant Game of Thrones Poon Hawk that is so perfectly fitted for it that I guess it stayed up for a while. “All Men Must Die.”

JILLY
That was the three eyed raven. I have to admit, I don’t watch the show, but once I saw the raven, my mind went, “Yeah, that’s definitely going to be a Poon Hawk.”

SZOLDIE
The thing is, after you told me that, I saw the Maleficent poster again. With her wings and everything, it would be perfect in front of Angelina Jolie’s face to have a Poon Hawk. And she might actually appreciate that.

JILLY
(laughs)
She would.

SZOLDIE
Not that you’d do it for her approval.

JILLY
Yeah, again, that’s something that you don’t plan, it just happens by chance.

SZOLDIE
I like the reoccurring factor of the Poon Hawk coming seasonally or other things from the past re-emerging. You definitely play with history in a way that can allow you to play with the history of your own stuff.
One thing in L.A. is that the billboards out here are an entity on to their own. I mean, this is the Wild West. The first time I came to L.A. I was struck with how nuts the billboards were. You certainly have your TV series, your movies, all the average bank stuff. But then there is a pretty big portion of it that is devoted to either vanity billboards- the most famous being in the ‘80’s, this woman Angelyne just had billboards of herself, her name in pink script. Angelyne, posing. A very buxom blonde. You also see these ads of realtors showing their abs, some really regional specific, L.A. vanity, money-to-spare, you’re just going to put up a billboard.
I think that some of them could definitely benefit from being Jilly-Bombed. So I have a little proposition for you. The fact that you’re across the country and we can’t really teletransport you here and get you up on a ladder to bomb these things... at the moment!

JILLY
At the moment.

SZOLDIE
I made a selection of some billboards that caught my eye. And I was wondering if you could pick a handful and do a Jilly treatment on them?

JILLY
That sounds perfect. That can be done.

SZOLDIE
Excellent. Well, I’ll send them to you. Use your judgement. Treat it as if you’re seeing all these driving down Sunset Blvd. and the world is your canvas.

JILLY
That sounds delightful. And you know what, if they really are fucking  outrageous, I will fly out there and do it. This could actually be the mock-up.

SZOLDIE
Take it away, Ballistic!